Venezuela +72hrs: Re-Emergence of Maria Corina Machado; Trepidation in Caracas; Trump/Rodriguez Quid Pro Quo; Global Implications

Latin America Correspondent Jon Bonfiglio speaks to Stig Abell for Times Radio Breakfast. 

Transcript

Stig Abell: 0:00

The Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Corina Machado has said Donald Trump deserves the award given to her. She told Fox News' Sean Hannity that President Trump uh that the abduction of Nicholas Maduro at the weekend made President Trump even more deserving now.

Maria Corina Machado: 0:15

As soon as I learned that we had been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, I dedicated to President Trump because I believed at that point that he deserved it. And a lot of people, most people said it was impossible to achieve what he has just done on Saturday, January 3rd. So if I believed he deserved it on October, imagine now. I think he has proven to the world what he means. I mean, January 3rd will go down in history as the day justice defeated a tyranny.

Kate McCann: 0:52

Machado said she hadn't spoken to Donald Trump since back in October, but was keen to back up the president's arguments for the abduction of Nicholas Maduro.

Maria Corina Machado: 1:00

I want to convey this to the American people, Sean. A free Venezuela means first, a security ally, dismantling the criminal hub of the Americas and turning it into a security shield. You know, the strongest ally to dismantle all these criminal structures that have made, you know, so much damage and harm to our people and to the American people as well.

Stig Abell: 1:24

And let's talk to John Bonfiglio, who covers Latin America and is in Mexico City at the moment. Jon, morning to you. Is it true to say that Donald Trump has achieved a free Venezuela? Is a free Venezuela what is actually on the cards after uh the removal of Maduro?

Jon Bonfiglio: 1:41

I think there's no hint of freedom as far as anybody on the ground can see, or even externally. I mean, um there's a continuation of the um of the administration. I mean, if if we're looking at Delcy Rodriguez, the interim president now, the president, she's absolutely a part of the furniture of what is referred to as the Chavista Revolution, which is to say Maduro's authoritarian uh regime. I mean, she was his vice president for a reason, and her accelerated swearing in as president by both the Supreme Court and Venezuela's Congress sort of tells you that the machine of state did not question her accession for uh for one minute.

Stig Abell: 2:17

I mean, Machado, they're desperately sucking up to Donald Trump. And there's some reporting in the American press that if you'd sucked up more to Donald Trump in the past and actually refused to take the Nobel Peace Prize and get and sort of allowed him to have it, she might be president now. I mean, are you struck that that he he's not been very warm to her at all?

Jon Bonfiglio: 2:34

I think it's um it's fascinating. The comment that he made the other day, where he sort of immediately sidelined her and said that she didn't have the population, um, was clearly an expedient comment, which sort of tells you that he's actually more interested in leveraging American objectives from the existing administration, who'd have thought that, than he is enabling a sort of democratic, likely, messy uh transition. Um, but you know, he said that, but she is hugely uh popular, like it or not, for Venezuelans inside and outside the country. Interestingly, she's sort of regarded as something well, she comes across, um, she's greeted as more of a religious figure even than a political one. There's sort of an air of the fervor of the of the saviour uh to her. At the moment, it definitely seems as though there's a sort of a tacit agreement between the Trump administration and Dulcy Rodriguez's uh continuation government, if you like. But um but actually Maria Corina Machales and the Venezuelan opposition sidelining is something of an unknown factor in what lies ahead.

Stig Abell: 3:28

It's an interesting point though about Delcy Rodriguez, because we're gonna we're gonna have Westreci on our programme, we had uh MPs of all stripes on our programme yesterday, and they're all very keen to say Maduro's awful, uh the world is a better place because Maduro's gone. But if Delcy Rodriguez just carries on uh in the Maduro vade is part of the same system as you say, that whole Western coddling of Donald Trump is it's harder to maintain, isn't it?

Jon Bonfiglio: 3:52

Yeah, absolutely. And and and this um I mean we're we're pretty well used to sort of the hypocrisies um so evident from uh the socialist regime during the Maduro years in in Venezuela, but they're likely to become even more marked under Dulce Rodriguez as she sort of buttresses on the one hand Venezuelan socialism, whilst at the same time opening up um Venezuela to US extractivism and exploitation on the um on the other. I mean, it's been uh an absolutely remarkable 72 hours, um, and not just because of what took place on the night of Friday and Saturday, but just almost every every new development takes us um to a place that we we absolutely never thought possible.

Stig Abell: 4:31

Do you get a sense uh um from where you are? I mean, it's very hard to sort of gauge the popular views of of Venezuelans, but they'll presumably be glad to see the back of Maduro, or many of them will do. But what are they meant to feel today? Are they meant to feel optimistic? Are they meant to feel that there is going to be significant change? Because from what you're saying is uh from a day-to-day life in Venezuela, it's hard to see how this makes things vastly better.

Jon Bonfiglio: 4:55

Yeah, absolutely. And definitely what I'm what I'm hearing um uh from uh individuals within Venezuela is that um there's actually even more trepidation than there was before because now there's huge unknowns uh on the horizon beforehand. They almost knew the the the devil, uh the devil within, but now it's it's it's completely uncertain. And and fundamentally it's not as though there's been there's a relief. There's not as though anything has has shifted or changed in the in the landscape. I mean, it it's sort of sounds strange given that 72 hours ago a foreign power entered the country by force, bombed the capital, killed nearly a hundred people, and took the president, but actually nothing has changed.

Stig Abell: 5:37

And do we know the quid pro crow how for how obvious and overt the quid pro crow is between Dulcy Rodriguez and and Trump? Because there's been some discussion that the the US must have had people on the inside to in order to get Majora out in the way that they did. Uh is there any I mean, how overt is a quid pro crow where Trump says, okay, you're now in power, we want X, Y, and Z in return?

Jon Bonfiglio: 5:59

Yeah, I think there's two things there. One is um as regards the operation itself. I think it's it's pretty clear, and again, what I'm what I'm sort of hearing from figures um close to um, I mean, I wouldn't say close to Delcy Rodriguez, but certainly within the sort of machinations of of government of Venezuela is that the the operation could not have taken place uh as it did to remove Nicolas Maduro without significant um people and support, the very least logistical on the inside. And then you know, as regards the quid pro quo, I mean we don't know for a fact, nothing's been said, but you can you can imagine that the way it's going to play out is um I mean and not just actually in Venezuela, but the way it's gonna play out specifically there in Caracas is Trump says that this has to happen and uh these policies have to be have to be enacted, and in particular, US uh companies have to be allowed in uh to Venezuela, and and that's that's a sort of a um um situation which has to be acted on and has to be acceded to by Dalton Rodriguez. Now, and a a subsequent point to that is that clearly Donald Trump is now going to use this as leverage for uh as a case study for how he wants to operate further across the uh the hemisphere. If you do not um play ball, then this is what it could look like for you.

Stig Abell: 7:08

Just finding this point I want to make to Wednestree when we speak to him later on, though. That if the argument here, the moral argument being made is Maduro is illegitimate and therefore it is good and illegitimate ruler is gone. Delcy Rodriguez is as illegitimate as Maduro. Is that right in your view?

Jon Bonfiglio: 7:23

Yes, there is. Um I mean the only the honestly the only thing that has changed is that Nicolas Maduro is now in in uh in a New York jail cell. But um but uh I mean it is impossible. It is um it would be a bankrupt argument to sort of suggest that the um that the most uh nefarious um uh parts uh of the sort of uh of the of the Maduro administration that ran Venezuela into the ground for 15 years, that that has been uh that that has been removed. The operation and the the machine of state uh under Maduro is still absolutely in place and has, as far as we can tell, uh and has been validated by uh Donald Trump.

Stig Abell: 8:07

That's so interesting, John. It's uh it's uh I find the moral sort of warblings of of Western politicians so interesting in this because the real answer is, which they won't admit to, is that they're frightened of Donald Trump, and that's where what the what what what where it begins and ends. But how they how they justify that becomes quite intriguing. Great aspee, really interesting stuff. Thanks for joining us. No problem, take care. That's John Bonfiler there covering Latin America. He's in Mexico City, but talking about what's going on in Caracas and Venezuela more generally. It's an interesting point though, that if the I what was Street and will say, um, you know, oh it's great to get rid of Maduro, Maduro's illegitimate, but if his deputy's just been thrown back into position, the regime is still as uh in position as ever, then that whole argument just disappears, doesn't it?

Kate McCann: 8:46

Well I think that's why the question about elections is such an important one, and I think that was a misstep yesterday from Donald Trump, because the language coming out of the White House is now different to what the president himself was saying. So he was asked, you know, when will you have elections in Venezuela? And Trump's answer was, Well, it'd be too difficult to do it right now, not really even sure how everybody would vote. That's something for further down the line. And then there was a meeting in the White House of senior officials, and the word from that meeting subsequently was we will do it in short order, we will arrange elections in short order. So I think there is a recognition that if they are going to pursue this idea that getting rid of Maduro and keep the rest of the West on side, it was a good thing. You do need to have the democratic legitimate like legitimacy of the presentation. But why would you trust those elections?

Stig Abell: 9:32

What why would you possibly trust elections run by the old regime?

Kate McCann: 9:35

Well, I suppose that's a that's a much bigger question, isn't it? Yeah. And how much Donald Trump, if he is, as he says, running Venezuela now, how much will he be running those elections? How much will the American administration be running those elections? But I think the other question that strikes me, listening to to you and John talk there, is this idea that, you know, we've very quickly got into this, okay, what will Trump do next cycle? And that's actually quite advantageous for America. Even on Greenland, you know, the the the Trump has been quite careful. He said we want it, we need it for defence. But it's now triggered this much bigger response and question about NATO. And when we've seen that happen in the past, we've seen Europe have to react in a way that maybe they didn't want to up until now, which was to recognise that Europe is going to have to pay for its own defence and step up. Is this where this goes now with Ukraine? Yeah. You know, the Coalition of the Willings meeting today, is it meeting now under the starkest possible circumstances, knowing that America maybe is refocusing? And does that mean that the Coalition of the Willing now has to step up in a way it hasn't before?

Stig Abell: 10:39

Yeah, or and can it? And is it really?

Kate McCann: 10:40

And can it? And if it can't, then what happens after that meeting today?

Stig Abell: 10:44

Well, Al makes the point, which I don't know the answers. We've got William Haig in the studio at nine o'clock, former Foreign Secretary, who is incredibly plugged into this world. So while asking this question, Al says, Am I alone in believing that Trump, Putin, and G have struck an agreement to let each other do what they want within each of their spheres of influence, all under the various guises of defeating supposed evil, reclaiming what was always rightfully theirs, or protecting their national security. Anywhere that Trump has his eyes on conveniently also has an abundance of oil andor rare earth minerals. And I don't know the answer to that question. I will ask William Hage that how overt this is. This is, you know, there's that famous Gilray cartoon of people carving up the globe, and it's been remade to show she and Trump and Putin doing it. It might not be overt, but it might be implicit, might it? What uh y you leave us alone here, we'll leave you alone there.

Kate McCann: 11:28

Yeah, and I think the repercussions of that statement, I think we're still grappling with those.