Venezuela: An Inflection Point in History - with Marina Hernández

Latin America Correspondent Jon Bonfiglio speaks with Venezuelan journalist Marina Hernández about the US action in Venezuela, Trump's sidelining of the Venezuelan opposition and how the country is arguably in an even more difficult place now than it was before Maduro's removal. 

For more information on the work of María Hernández, copy and paste this link: https://linktr.ee/ninaescritora

Transcript

Jon Bonfiglio: 0:02

Hi everyone, welcome back to Latin America Correspondent. Today I'm joined again by a figure regular listeners know, Marina Hernandez, Venezuelan journalist based in Argentina. Marina, thanks um thanks for joining us. But before we get into this, I just want to put a timestamp to this recording because things have moved so quickly in the last thirty-six hours. Um and uh I suspect will continue to move quickly. Um we're speaking now on what is Sunday morning America's time on the 4th of January 2026 in the immediate sort of shock lull of what took place in Venezuela in the small hours of Friday, 3rd of January, about 36 hours ago. Um Marina, maybe we can just start with your reaction to the events of yesterday, please.

Marina Hernandez: 0:45

Um well at first I didn't believe it. I was completely shocked. There were a lot, and there is still a lot a lot of misinformation. So um people started to hear explosions in Caracas around 3 or 4 um a.m on the 3rd of January. At the first people didn't know what was actually happening, and then Trump uh posted on truth that he had Maduro. Desi Rodriguez then said that they wanted uh they confirmed the attack. They said uh Venezuela was under attack, and she said she didn't know where Maduro was. Um that was like the sort of events. Uh we know that El Cuartel de la Montaña where Chavez Stump is might have been bombed. This is not confirmed yet, but we know that if they didn't bomb that, they bombed like a near nearby place. Um they bought the all around Fuerte Tuna, which is the military base with uh Maduro and the high military commands live inside of Caracas. Um when time happened, like around noon, it was confirmed that Maduro was definitely in hands of uh Trump. And then they released a photo of him around, I don't know, 3 or 4 p.m. Uh in hell uh in custody of the United States inside an airplane. We saw images last night of him arriving to New York already in captured, and then this was this in the middle of the afternoon, I believe it was maybe 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. There was this uh press conference for Trump, uh Marco Rubio and other people that that integrated his government, and I I will say that was the most shocking part. Until that part, we didn't know what was actually happening, but when we heard Trump, uh well, that was definitely the big shock to know what what will be next, right, after he's attacked.

Jon Bonfiglio: 2:39

Can you do yeah, I mean I think that's really interesting because of course the events that actually took place in Venezuela were um were unprecedented, it's a word I've used an a number of times now, but I think it's it's fair. But I I I completely agree with you that actually it was the press conference um a few hours after that which almost seemed to take it to a whole nother level. Um can you just from your perspective? I've sort of covered the press conference in a fair bit of detail, but from your perspective, what specifically was it in that press conference which just made you sort of you know, which is like a bucket of cold water thrown in your face for you?

Marina Hernandez: 3:16

Yeah. Number of things. Uh first, I would definitely say that the most shocking thing would be the fact that Trump said bluntly that he is not planning on on having Maria Gorina Machado joining as a part of the government or the Torsit government. And in addition to that, that he's talking to Delcy Rodriguez, which is the vice president of Maduro, um, to negotiate this. This has not been confirmed or denied by Delcey, which I think is very surprising as well, the silence of this matter. Um, one could think that if you are not cooperating with Trump, you would be uh very fast to deny that, but she didn't send that. So uh that's very, I would say that's very uh a thing to highlight. She was in Russia when all of this happened. She was in Russia before. So I don't know if that was a coincidence or not. Of course, it's all speculation, but um, she was not inside of Venezuela. And there has been rumors like on the past few months that she has been cooperating with Maduro. Um, this had not been confirmed, but uh the uh set of media had released um that rumor that she might uh had betrayed Maduro and be cooperating with Trump. I will say the second thing, of course. I mean, I don't think at this point it's news to anyone uh that the United States has a big interest in Venezuelan's oil, especially with all the recent events where they uh attacked the ships, and Trump said that they will uh take the United States will take this the oil and they will sell it or whatever. They was just, I mean, he bluntly said with his very straightforward language that they will take the oil that they grabbed from those those ships. Um he said, and he has been saying this for a while, but he repeated that on a press conference, that Venezuela stole oil from the US. His argument for this is that they created the industry in Venezuela for oil, and then at some point the Venezuelan government took uh those enterprises and didn't pay back to the US. And so he claims that this is a fair request from the United States to wrap back the oil that Venezuela took from them. He said that the United States will be in charge of the government of Venezuela until further notice, probably uh along with Delhi. So that was very surprising, too. Um he said that uh they will invest in the Venezuela industry, they will make hundreds of millions of dollars. I'm just quoting him, they they will make hundreds of millions of dollars uh with the industry because, and this is uh true, the Venezuelan oil production has been at its lowest in history at this point because of the the bad administration of the Maduro and before that, Chavez. And he said they will give uh that money to the Venezuelan people, which I think, I mean, with that claim, I have no doubt that the Venezuelan oil industry could be better under the US administration or any other administration that will actually be producing more oil. But my question is if that money or how that money will actually go to the Venezuelan people, right? That that's the question I have. Um, then he also uh said other things about other parts of the world, and this was more about Marco Rubio, I believe, answered this question. They were asked about Cuba, about Colombia, and Marco Rubio bluntly said that if he lived in La Habana, he would be very worried. And he's Cuban, we all know his history, and we all know that he has been like the main super of all of this um alongside Trump. So, I mean, we know Trump had said before with the security uh document that he released that he's planning to put back uh the Monroe Doctrine in Latin America, but I believe this was very much blunt. And uh he also said he's prepared for a second strike. So basically, he just to summarize it, the Prince Conference said we will be in charge of the oil within the United States, we will govern Venezuela, Maria Gorina Machado or the opposition leaders democratically elected are not uh in the scene of that, and we are talking to Del C and we will be owning this country and owning the oil production, and we are ready to do this uh in other countries of Latin America whenever needed.

Jon Bonfiglio: 7:49

And I think that's that's what was staggering because we're used to with Trump press conferences, we're used to expecting surprises, we're used to thinking the envelope being pushed way beyond what it is that we that we um that we expect to happen. But all of those things, and as you say, it was the brazenness which with a lot of these things were were actually said, that they weren't even hidden or shielded or cloaked anymore. In fact, one of the few things which is still kind of being cloaked, uh, which of course is politically expedient, is the the sort of the arrest. I mean, you said about oil, right? So we we know what the US motivations are now. I mean, we've known for a long time, but it's now pretty clear because they're saying it themselves. So the only sort of um I guess uh lack of transparency for a better word, is as regards the charges being laid on Maduro, because there's still the um the the the sort of the argument that this is um this is a law and order issue, that these are drugs charges that are being laid on uh on Maduro, that he's the high head of the Cartago de los Soles, and he's deliberately poisoning the US with um cocaine and you know again hypothetically fans and all that. We know all that all of these things have no basis in information, none of which is to say that Maduro is uh you know the the the best example of a human being. He clearly is a tyrant, he clearly is a despot that has run Venezuela into the ground. So we we we know all things, right? But a drug trafficker, he is he is not. So that's kind of the only real inconstant, I think, in amongst everything else, which I mean honestly, when he said that just like that, uh yeah, the US will run Venezuela, like that absolutely staggered me. That was like I I never expected, even in a Trump universe, for that declaration to take place. When he said, Yeah, we will be selling Venezuelan oil, again, I never expected him to be so open about the fact that and this sort of change in in rhetoric recently as well about the fact that Venezuelan oil actually is US oil according to the US administration, of course, that it belongs to them. This sort of this um strange double thing, sleight of hand, I mean all of those things and a number of others at the at the press conference absolutely took things way beyond the point at which um you know I I think, and and I'm hearing the same from you, thought that um we were going to be hearing it. If we can just come back to the Venezuelan opposition because I do think that that's a really interesting point, and it sort of went a little bit unnoticed, a little bit unmentioned. Um when he was asked about Maria Karina Machado, and he said really dismissively about the fact that she's a nice woman, but she doesn't have the support in in Venezuela. I mean, of course, again that you know that is just factually not correct, as we've seen from both the election uh election results have been released, but also how she's received and greeted across across the country. There was a real disconnect there, and of course, we we're also used to Donald Trump having um uh being quite happy to deal with authoritarian regimes. So it seems to me, and tell me if if you think that this reading of the situation that I'm about to give you is is is accurate or not, it seems to me that the Trump administration has now made a decision that actually um they don't want to get into regime change, they don't want to get into um uh encouraging of democratic processes in Venezuela. That's completely anathema to what it is that they want to do. There, again, we know what their motivations are, and that it's actually easier for them to work with the remnants of a sort of a submissive um Maduro regime, what's left of a Maduro regime in order to accelerate those processes because that state infrastructure is in place rather than bring in an opposition or facilitate a transition, because facilitating a transition is going to be messy, it's going to involve new structures, it's not going to be clear cut, and that, if anything, is going to slow down the US's primary motivations in Venezuela, which clearly are extractivist and economic. I don't know. Tell me what you think.

Marina Hernandez: 11:43

Yeah, I think Urine is correct. Um I think having a democratic process in Venezuela might actually, and he knows this, might actually bring as a consequence that Venezuelan people want to oil own the oil of our soul, right? So uh he doesn't want that because that would bring a lot of questions. It's easier to kind of like stand with the process in this kind of like shady way, where of course all of the remaining people on the Venezuelan regime are very much scared because he already showed all the force he has. Um it's also I want to I want to add a comment here that this operation wasn't, I believe, uh 48 seconds or something like less than a minute, and it of course shows uh clear cooperation from the the Venezuelan military with Trump. So we know this was not like this has been going on for a while. There has been rumors for years about militaries turning against Maduro, uh, but this was very clear. So he knows he has allies inside of that, and he probably knows that he has allies among those that Rodriguez herself. He knows that they are very scary. He probably uh already negotiated with them what they are going to get in exchange of all of this. So yeah, I believe your reading is definitely correct. Um Maria Corina, Machal, has not really said a lot. He she only released uh press communicate on her Instagram and Twitter and other social networks. She didn't even appear on camera, which she has been doing a lot on this past uh few months. So I believe the person who has more to lose in this is her because I believe she picked the wrong allied, and I believe uh Trump turned against her. So uh that leaves Venezuela in an even more complicated situation, if that's possible, than we were on Thursday. Right now, we are in an even more complicated situation where our sovereignty and our rights are even worse than they were before. Um so there's a lot of tension, and honestly, I believe like reading this uh in like the worldwide perspective, it really just leaves it clear that if Trump can do it, anyone can do it, right? Like what's what's the what's the guarantee that uh authoritarian leaders cannot do this in the world, right? That Putin, I don't know, uh do this on other countries or that China does this on Taiwan, for example. Um there are no democratic guarantees of this. And also Trump can basically do this anywhere he wants, if he do this in Venezuela. That's what he said, and that's what he wants to project. So it's a very, very complicated moment, not just for Venezuela, but for the world. And I think this is why there has been such a shock. We haven't seen this since last century, where uh United States attacked Panama. Of course, we have seen some like kind of like more uh low interventions on, for example, Argentina elections and Honduras elections, where the United States always has uh some sort of influence on how the miners uh disinvolve. But these sort of things is really something that hasn't happened uh in Latin America, at least in this century. So uh it's a breaking point for for history, I believe.

Jon Bonfiglio: 15:01

Yeah, I think I think you're totally right. It is a chilling development, and it is a I I've been referring to it um a number of times as being clearly, you know how you sometimes something happens and you all you automatically know that it's a point in history, that it's going to be a reference point for generations to come. And what took place on the morning of January 3rd and the implications, um the the the the language that accompanied that um those actions uh are very clearly going to be um I'm drawn to saying high watermark, but very clearly, you know, a very low uh base from which uh we're gonna be seeing the consequences emerge and sort of logical arguments, furious logical arguments formed. And for Latin America, even by Latin American standards, I mean, you know, Latin America is used to US interventionism, but even with that history, even with that context and those standards, like it seems as though this is a whole different we've entered uh uh an entirely different territory now than than the one that we uh that we inhabited before. And the fact that um and I'll maybe just make this last point that there was this these questions at the press conference as well about America first is invading another country or is regime changing another country America first. And again, the response being that actually uh you know, citing the Monroe Doctrine and actually that um America first means I mean he said it oil first. We we need the oil, he said. Um so putting all of the hemisphere and all of the region, um irrespective of sovereignty, into the service of the USA, I think is a is an entirely different landscape now that we just we didn't exist before, even given uh of course the context. Um can I just finish, Marina, if that's okay? Obviously, you're in Argentina, Argentina is living its own moment as a nation, also within the context of um uh of Latin America as well. Um I'm not asking you to just you know to just give us a sort of a single response, but what are you hearing on the ground from Argentine context by way of um reaction to the events of the weekend?

Marina Hernandez: 17:14

Well, there are two currents of this. Uh first is being the Malay supporters, basically, uh the right-wing uh voters, they are pretty much eager for Venezuela. Yesterday I went to cover a congregation of Venezuelans, uh, a celebration, it was actually. It was a very festive environment. And there were a lot of like kind of hats and uh masks with the Malay face, for example. So Mele has openly said that he basically wants to be Trump and is trying to emulate everything Trump does in Argentina. Um and he said he's, of course, open to an US invasion and taking Maduro out and all of that. Um, that's kind of like one side of the view of Argentinas, and there's this the other one where Peronismo has been very, very uh afraid to condemn openly the Maduro dictatorship. Um actually, in in the last election, the midterm election, uh the candidate, one of the candidates that were in front of Peronismo, is someone that is not calling Venezuela dictatorship. I mean, he still has this kind of like unclear language of, well, I don't know, it's an authoritarian regime, but he's not using the word dictatorship. So the other side is people that are, of course, absolutely condemning uh an US intervention, but also not saying what the Maduro regime has done for ages, right? For decades. So they are saying that, of course, we are against a US intervention, all of what that we've been discussing here, but they are not saying that the Venezuelan people have been suffering for decades. There are there are 80 million people outside their country, that people are being incarcerated, tortured, and killed inside of Venezuelan prisons for speaking against the regime. So I believe what I see is a lot of like, and I believe this is like a world climate, but it's just like uh a sort of like sample of that in Argentina, where people just take the opposite sides of uh very extreme speech, and they are afraid to say that there are two truths that there are two things that can be true at the same time, which is that what the US is doing is absolutely legal from every standpoint of the, I don't know, international uh laws, right? And that Maduro regime is a terrorist, that is also illegal and has been uh torturing Venezuelans for decades. These are two uh truths that can coexist, and I don't see them as contradictory. But whenever I speak or whenever I speak to other people, I get a lot of reaction from those truths. Um so people are afraid to say that those two things can be uh said at the same time. I believe we're kind of like on a cold war environment where you have to pick a side, you have to be like in the side of Uh left or inside of Trump. There is no in between, and there's not saying that they are both wrong, which I believe is uh the obvious thing to do from my point of view. Um, but that's that's Germany.

Jon Bonfiglio: 20:11

Yeah. And I think it's no accident that Trump um chose Maduro as his primary target in Latin America. I I would suggest that his sort of his uh thought process was that if I can pick the guy who is perceived to be the bad guy in Latin America, that actually whatever means I use, whatever means are at my disposal, I use legal or illegal, people are gonna thank me for what I'm doing anyway. So it's like he's a worse guy than I am, and then I'm gonna be they're gonna be grateful to me for for what's taken place. I also completely agree that I think um the Maduro regime has been a serious problem for the for the for the left uh across Latin America for quite a long time now, and the left has been unable to um to really to know how to address it and definitely has not done so effectively. And it's left itself with you know it um tainted by by events in Venezuela. We've said a number of times now, whether it be the economic implosion in in Venezuela, but also the migration that that generated regionally and and politically, of course, um how the left is sort of trapped by trapped in a corner by by Maduro's actions for a period of time. Venezuela has had a really outsized effect on um on the um society and politics of Latin America for the last 10 years or so. Um and clearly that's that's not going to go away. I think that you know this is still but this is not the end of a process by any stretch of the imagination. This is just the beginning of a new frontier. Marina, can I just um uh thank you very much for your uh time. Um if it's okay with you, we'll we'll keep connecting and and speaking and and getting your perspective, but really appreciate um your uh your efforts and um your your entry point and your thoughts into into this whole uh into this whole thing. Yeah, thank you.